Episode 1

1: Race, Hierarchy, Rule of Law

Published on: 20th June, 2020

A conversation with Christophe Difo and Sean Prophet on hierarchy, race, religion and law.

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Transcript
Christophe Difo:

I am Christophe Difo, and you know, we're going to see how this goes and I'm looking forward to the chat

Sean Prophet:

and I'm Sean Prophet.

Sean Prophet:

And this is our first go round at a sort of a, of a new.

Sean Prophet:

A show format that we're planning to do in the age of coronavirus, where we can talk to each other online and discuss some of these

Sean Prophet:

ideas, particularly having to do with race, culture, and religion that seems, and the law, of course, that's, those are our major topics.

Sean Prophet:

So

Christophe Difo:

I liked that, Sean.

Christophe Difo:

I liked that.

Sean Prophet:

Welcome to the show, everybody.

Sean Prophet:

Okay.

Sean Prophet:

So Christophe, what, what do you think about this whole situation with the firing of the New York?

Sean Prophet:

Us attorney.

Christophe Difo:

Sure.

Christophe Difo:

You know, I it's, I think, I, I think and we were talking a little bit about this earlier.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, this is, I think just another one of the planks of you know, in the sort of edifice of, of, of, of a fascism, but authoritarianism, right?

Christophe Difo:

I mean, this is this is authoritarianism one Oh one.

Christophe Difo:

We don't even have to look.

Christophe Difo:

To the far past to see that, I mean, we can look at Turkey we can look look at Brazil.

Christophe Difo:

We, we can look at all these things and see the Philippines, right?

Christophe Difo:

I mean, this is not new, right?

Christophe Difo:

This is what happened.

Sean Prophet:

Attack the media attack, the, the courts, you know attack elections, you know, accuse your opponents.

Christophe Difo:

Silent opponents.

Christophe Difo:

And get everyone on the get.

Christophe Difo:

And like you, you you've said this before, get everyone on the take.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

So, so that everyone below you is anyone that might be able to confront you, anyone who might be able to hold you to

Christophe Difo:

So that they are now part of your.

Christophe Difo:

System and, and, and, and right.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and they, and, and now you've made, you've created an incentive where they have little incentive to, to to,

Christophe Difo:

Because now they are on the take also.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So if they, if it's an indictment of them, if they confront you.

Sean Prophet:

Expand the gravy train to the point where, you know, people's careers, people's political careers and,

Sean Prophet:

. Christophe Difo: Exactly.

Sean Prophet:

And loyalty.

Sean Prophet:

That's the key right there.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

That's the key.

Sean Prophet:

And I mean, and, and Trump makes no, no bones about this, right?

Sean Prophet:

Like, I mean, it's not like, it's pretend, it's not like he's like sneaking around.

Sean Prophet:

I mean, it's happening, like in, it's a slow motion car wreck happening right in front of our eyes.

Sean Prophet:

I mean, everyone knows that this man.

Sean Prophet:

This man is about loyalty.

Sean Prophet:

And so, so getting back to, I think too, that the particular situation here, right?

Sean Prophet:

I mean, you mentioned this earlier that we're talking about a Trump appointee here

Sean Prophet:

Berman is, a Trump appointee who was sent in to kind of clean up the mess that Trump was facing with Preet Bahara, who was his predecessor.

Sean Prophet:

Who was being very aggressive towards enforcing the law and towards a lot of Trump cronies.

Sean Prophet:

And so they brought in Berman and now he's doing his job and he's being accused and removed for being too aggressive at enforcing the law, which is his job.

Christophe Difo:

Yeah, absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

You know, this is interesting.

Christophe Difo:

I just thought about this now, but you know, the grit, like one of the, one of the values of having we can art, we can talk a

Christophe Difo:

One of the reasons why there's value there.

Christophe Difo:

And we talk about this a lot in law school, right?

Christophe Difo:

Is, is, is that right?

Christophe Difo:

Because we're talking about the Supreme court.

Christophe Difo:

Rulings that came out this week.

Christophe Difo:

One of them was purely purely procedural.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And that was the DACA one.

Christophe Difo:

And so they basically in the report and opinion laid out the framework by which to the, the, the the administration could do it.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So like, we, we ended up, we've bought ourselves some time, but that's all that's happened.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

We just bought ourselves.

Sean Prophet:

I still think that with the DACA ruling I think John Roberts is a, he's no dummy.

Sean Prophet:

And he's putting Trump on notice that, you know, we're not going to rubber stamp you anymore.

Sean Prophet:

And I think that it may be more than procedural.

Sean Prophet:

It's hard to tell, but you know, it's like, What I think is going on is that the, the DACA recipients who are here in this country have, have a

Sean Prophet:

They have jobs, employers have spent money, training them all of those things.

Sean Prophet:

And so the, the Supreme court is understanding that, you know, cause the Supreme court people think they're just this legal body,

Sean Prophet:

And they're looking at it, you know, in the same way that with the, with the other decision about LGBT employment law, right?

Christophe Difo:

The big one.

Christophe Difo:

Not that DACA was small,

Sean Prophet:

Well, it's, it's, it's huge.

Sean Prophet:

And I think that you get to a point where no matter how ideological the court becomes, you know, unless they're, unless they're just total cronies, unless

Sean Prophet:

they were all like Kavanaugh, And Clarence Thomas, basically those three clones as all nine justices, you might start to see some real hardcore rulings.

Sean Prophet:

You know, that would be, that would be fascist, but you know, the rest of them are still sane enough to look at the consequences of such a ruling would have.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and, and, you know, and and this is, I think this is really important.

Christophe Difo:

And, and I think that in, in the public imagination Supreme court justices are liberal or conservative and they're, so they're like, sort of, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like they will always rule X on this way.

Christophe Difo:

They're always ruled that way.

Christophe Difo:

But at the end of the day, these are jurists, right.

Christophe Difo:

And they are among the.

Christophe Difo:

The smartest people, they are the smartest people in the law, right.

Christophe Difo:

Whether or not I agree with them.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

I mean like, like I think about Scalia, right.

Christophe Difo:

I re I disagree with almost every word that man wrote, but he was, but he was also brilliant.

Christophe Difo:

And that's just, that's just true.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

So these are not hacks.

Christophe Difo:

Now whether or not you want to make that argument with like Kavanaugh or et cetera.

Christophe Difo:

Like, that's a different question, but like some of the judges that have been on before and like, so what I think is fascinating is that a guy

Christophe Difo:

And, and do you see, which is like, the most respected circuit, maybe, maybe next, like the second circuit.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So this guy takes his job seriously.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And, so he is looking at the cultural landscape, et cetera, but but he also doesn't want to come off as a hack.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, this guy, I think, is thinking about his legacy, right.

Christophe Difo:

He's thinking about what he looks like.

Christophe Difo:

And by the way, he's probably taking the fact that he is the chief justice.

Christophe Difo:

He's probably taken that kind of seriously.

Christophe Difo:

Like maybe I should not let this institution fall apart under me, you know,

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Well, and, and, and to your point before that you were saying about you know, whether it's Clarence Thomas or Scalia, or are

Christophe Difo:

Sure.

Sean Prophet:

You know, are extremely good at justifying with good reasoning.

Sean Prophet:

You know, what those texts meant when they were written.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

And You know, a lot of times they're self-serving interpretations, right?

Sean Prophet:

Cause they, they don't, they're not acknowledging the fact that when those texts were written, a lot of the problems that we're facing today didn't exist.

Sean Prophet:

They didn't even, they weren't even conceived of.

Sean Prophet:

So, you know, you can't, it's hard to be an honest textual originalist.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, I, I think w you know, we, we, we both, we both talked about, we recently talked about the that book, the reactionary mind.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And, I can see that in these at you know, when I was in law school and reading a lot of cases a lot, all the time, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like these old cases, I didn't, and especially from Scalia, because you read a lot of those in law school you know, I didn't.

Christophe Difo:

Fully sort of grasp the, I didn't understand the sort of reactionary mind, you know, conservative concept, but and for those who were

Christophe Difo:

watching, basically the idea is that, you know, conservatism is essentially an exercise in justifying power, almost retroactively, right?

Christophe Difo:

It's a reactive, it's a reactive sort of philosophy

Sean Prophet:

Specifically the existing hierarchy that.

Sean Prophet:

That holds, you know, like during the founding of the country it was all based on property ownership and being white.

Sean Prophet:

So at that time, that was the top of the hierarchy.

Sean Prophet:

So the law was written entirely.

Sean Prophet:

It excluded women.

Sean Prophet:

It excluded, I mean, Slaves are counted for representation purposes but they couldn't vote.

Sean Prophet:

So, you know, the three-fifths compromise all that stuff.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

But the hierarchy was just built into the constitution, you know, even the idea of a Republic versus a democracy.

Sean Prophet:

Is a, is a justification of hierarchy, right.

Christophe Difo:

Abs absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And right.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and the, and the, and the sort of, and the electoral college, all at the idea that like the, the, the masses, the mob,

Christophe Difo:

Just lacks a capacity to sort of speak for themselves.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

They cannot be trusted to speak for themselves and sort of right.

Sean Prophet:

Because if you trusted.

Sean Prophet:

The people to actually make decisions, then you wouldn't need to appoint representatives who could overrule the people.

Sean Prophet:

It's just basically what senators , by the way, who were appointed in the beginning, they weren't even elected.

Sean Prophet:

And then electors who are who are essentially appointed based on, you know, who votes in their States for the presidential candidate.

Sean Prophet:

These, these are people who, you know, at many points.

Sean Prophet:

Know, now they're kind of considered to be bound to to, to honor the popular vote in their state, but there's even a Supreme court case about that.

Sean Prophet:

Whether they're going to allow these electors to sort of, I miss that, that a conservative ruling in favor of that would be ruling in favor of hierarchy.

Sean Prophet:

Like these people are special.

Sean Prophet:

They can overrule the masses.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and, and this sort of gets to the nub of the fundamentals are conservatism, and I just want to close the loop on the Supreme court.

Christophe Difo:

And that is right when reading these sort of textualists interpretations.

Christophe Difo:

First of all, the idea that they're not activist judges.

Christophe Difo:

Fucking bullshit.

Christophe Difo:

Like of course our activist judges, they are as active activist as they come.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, right.

Christophe Difo:

The second amendment is like the Scalia's interpretation.

Christophe Difo:

The second amendment is the classic example of that.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, it is as activist as you come it's like, and again, it is always a basically conservative brilliance.

Christophe Difo:

It seems certainly on the court.

Christophe Difo:

Yeah.

Christophe Difo:

The way its ability to, as you say, sort of justify the reactionary, like, like being brilliant at like crafting ways to

Christophe Difo:

Like that's, it.

Sean Prophet:

It's very similar to the whole concept of States' rights, right?

Sean Prophet:

Like, I mean, a state's rights activist, judges, all of those things that the conservatives are.

Sean Prophet:

Absolutely.

Sean Prophet:

You know, like you, you can't talk to them for five minutes without hearing, you know, state's rights and activist judges.

Sean Prophet:

But, but when it comes to, when it comes time, when a state wants to do something that they don't like, then, then they just ignore.

Sean Prophet:

They forget anything about state's rights.

Sean Prophet:

And the same thing drives me, you know, like, like they would never consider they would never admit for a second, but Clarence Thomas was or Scalia were

Sean Prophet:

activist judges, but in fact, They are activists in the sense of, of that they are committed to the premise of, of, of reinforcing the hierarchy.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

There is activist as any other liberal judge, like activist as hell.

Christophe Difo:

And this gets into right.

Christophe Difo:

How the, and this is also in the reactionary mind, right?

Christophe Difo:

How conservatives co-opt liberal strategies.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Saul Alinsky is the Bible now of right-wing activism, you know.

Christophe Difo:

Here we are, I mean, it's just like this ironic circle and I, and bade back to the States, right.

Christophe Difo:

Thing for a second is.

Christophe Difo:

My favorite is that you have, so let's say, you know we are in North Carolina and Raleigh Raleigh, North Carolina decides that like we want, cause you know,

Christophe Difo:

So let's say, they say like, Hey look we want to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour here in Raleigh.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

We're like, we can't speak for the rest of North Carolina after all, like we're just a city

Sean Prophet:

in our city.

Sean Prophet:

We're going to do this.

Christophe Difo:

We're going to do this.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And so what the conservative legislators have done in States like that is that they have preempted those States laws so they write

Christophe Difo:

So now your state's rights argument falls apart right there.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Cause the state's rights argument is that like, like local people should make their own laws.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

The state, right?

Christophe Difo:

Target, not someone over there in effect, but like, but it all falls apart.

Christophe Difo:

But, but when it comes to a liberal city, Oh no, no, no, no, no.

Christophe Difo:

Don't let them make their rules.

Christophe Difo:

We get to make it's me again.

Christophe Difo:

We don't want,

Sean Prophet:

I have a name for this.

Sean Prophet:

It's called jurisdictional arbitrage.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

Whatever, whatever your, wherever, your power, that's the jurisdiction.

Sean Prophet:

You favor at that.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Sean Prophet:

If you're a power in the city, you favor the city, your power on the state.

Sean Prophet:

Favor the state here in power, federal, you favor the federal.

Sean Prophet:

And if the opposition is in power, then you're against, and they, and they play this game over and over and over and over again at every level

Christophe Difo:

On every level.

Christophe Difo:

And it just like, there's a bottomless pit of bad faith, on the right, and on the left, one of our greatest failing on the

Christophe Difo:

And the early two thousands was this idea that we were playing the same game like that.

Christophe Difo:

We were playing the same game that that's that fair play, right?

Christophe Difo:

We're all playing by the same rules that assumption killed us.

Christophe Difo:

And we now know that we are in a knife fight in a fucking phone booth.

Christophe Difo:

Like that is what we are for democracy, for Liberty.

Sean Prophet:

Yeah.

Sean Prophet:

Right now.

Sean Prophet:

And this situation that's going on.

Sean Prophet:

I mean, it's a serious as a heart attack.

Sean Prophet:

I mean, that, that you know, Berman was someone who had he's he's he's, you know, he's going after Giuliani, you know, he's going after all

Sean Prophet:

these associates of, of Trump, you know, and a lot of harmful information come out of that and how to set it up to the campaign right now.

Sean Prophet:

They don't want that.

Sean Prophet:

They don't want anybody under indictment.

Sean Prophet:

They don't want, you know, harmful information coming out right now, especially, I mean, you've got Bolton's book, which by the

Sean Prophet:

way, I thought it was hilarious that he did not get his you know, that Trump did not get his a preliminary injunction about the book.

Christophe Difo:

I was like, yes, finally, thank God.

Christophe Difo:

You know what I mean,

Sean Prophet:

CNN, everybody had the book already, so it was kinda, yeah.

Christophe Difo:

Yeah, exactly.

Christophe Difo:

So whatever, like everyone, like everyone, all those people already read the book or out to the, it had their staffers

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

You know?

Sean Prophet:

There's also, you know, because he's claiming the book is at the same time, it's all lies, but then it's classified.

Sean Prophet:

How do you do that?

Sean Prophet:

You know,

Christophe Difo:

what is like, is it, or is it not right?

Christophe Difo:

You know,

Sean Prophet:

is interesting.

Sean Prophet:

Cause we just pointed out, you know, we pointed out now about five examples of hypocrisy, you know, the, the, the

Sean Prophet:

Now we're talking about, you know, the ability to classify information, you know, it's a, you know, it just goes on and on and on

Christophe Difo:

and on, on and on and on.

Christophe Difo:

And like, I, how about the email server?

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Like, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like, I think there was a, like, I think like a lot of people in the sort of Trump's circle were like, this was,

Christophe Difo:

And one of these things that would have been a scandal under normal circumstances, but just because

Christophe Difo:

It's just like, okay, well, You know, but but I think it was Ivanka, maybe Ivanka Trump's.

Christophe Difo:

She was using a private email server.

Sean Prophet:

They're all using private....

Sean Prophet:

You know, Trump uses his own cell phone.

Sean Prophet:

He doesn't even use a government protected cell phone.

Sean Prophet:

So his, basically his conversations, everything he does, it's an open book to all of our adversaries.

Sean Prophet:

Well, it's, it's unbelievable.

Sean Prophet:

And, and, and, and again, like but her emails, right?

Sean Prophet:

Like, but her emails, but her emails, like what.

Sean Prophet:

One little thing, you know, like they, they seize on things that aren't even really an issue that there shouldn't be an

Sean Prophet:

She like, you know, how can we make our email more secure?

Christophe Difo:

Right, exactly.

Sean Prophet:

And then it's like, well, okay, Hillary Clinton used this private email server, well, what are we

Sean Prophet:

Nothing, nothing.

Sean Prophet:

Because as soon as it comes in, you know, Ivanka's doing it, Jared's doing it, they're all doing it.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Even, you know, I think, I think During the impeachment hearings, there was examples of all sorts of people using their own phones.

Christophe Difo:

Yeah.

Christophe Difo:

That's probably what I'm thinking.

Christophe Difo:

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking about because I remember it being a long time ago, but I remember like this coming up

Christophe Difo:

I mean, come on, we had a whole election based on this idea, you know, we lost an election based on this, you know, and seriously

Sean Prophet:

not to mention, not to mention any of the accusations of, of, of cronyism and nepotism and all of the emoluments.

Sean Prophet:

Things literally just goes on and on, like on and off this most corrupt administration that has ever existed in the United States.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, it has to be, it has to be, and, and, and, and, and the, the, the sort of plain sight.

Christophe Difo:

Of it is what's so appalling and perhaps why it's so, so, you know, I always used to say like, if you want to get away

Christophe Difo:

Because by no one's looking in plain sight, like, I mean, you know, just act like you're doing nothing.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Just act like you're just doing what you would anyway.

Christophe Difo:

Everyone is doing and you can get away with it.

Christophe Difo:

And that's almost what this administration has been.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Like Nixon was no, they go out of their way to hide it to, you know, cover ups out of the dock.

Christophe Difo:

And maybe there are coverups going on.

Christophe Difo:

I'm sure there are to some extent,

Sean Prophet:

You recall when when Trump got on TV and literally just admitted flat out that there was a quid pro quo, right.

Sean Prophet:

He just said, and then, you know, later on they're like walking back saying, no, that didn't happen, but it's just, they literally, every,

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Sean Prophet:

Even when Trump said, Hey, if you let everybody vote, Republicans would never win again.

Sean Prophet:

I mean, Right.

Sean Prophet:

It's just like, say the quiet part out loud, you know,

Christophe Difo:

you're not supposed to say that part out loud.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, you're not supposed to say that part out loud.

Sean Prophet:

Yeah.

Sean Prophet:

So it's hard to say.

Sean Prophet:

I don't know.

Sean Prophet:

I don't know like where this ends, right?

Sean Prophet:

Like how, how do the Democrats ever get back control of anything?

Sean Prophet:

Because, you know, we can't, you know, we can't have a decent trial.

Sean Prophet:

The judges are corrupted.

Sean Prophet:

You can't, you know, you can't impeach somebody at the Senate's corrupt, you can't, you know, like the no

Christophe Difo:

Yeah, and that's right.

Christophe Difo:

And that's right.

Christophe Difo:

And that's what I think terrifying.

Christophe Difo:

And, and I, you know, and I think this is what goes under the radar with some of the the both hashtag both sides folks would obviously drive me up the wall.

Christophe Difo:

But this idea that like, Oh, they're are all a bunch of bums, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like they're Democrats, Republicans are all a bunch of bums, so but really, like, and maybe they are.

Sean Prophet:

But that's the laziest.

Sean Prophet:

That is the laziest interpretation right now.

Sean Prophet:

It's the easiest thing in the world to say.

Sean Prophet:

And it means that you don't have to engage with any issue.

Sean Prophet:

You don't have to actually look at what's happening.

Sean Prophet:

You don't have to, you know, you don't have to even read the news.

Sean Prophet:

You don't have to keep up on anything.

Sean Prophet:

It's just exactly at any point in history, if you want to say all, both sides of the same.

Sean Prophet:

Both sides are at fault.

Sean Prophet:

You know, that that just gets you off the hook.

Sean Prophet:

It puts you sort of above it all.

Sean Prophet:

It gives you less of an incentive to vote less of an incentive to, to be engaged and less of an incentive to even examine your own ethics.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Because you're, you're kind of separating yourself from the fray.

Christophe Difo:

And I think that's the rub.

Christophe Difo:

The last piece that you just said there, I mean, like all of what you said is true, but I think what you just said at the

Christophe Difo:

One's own ethics, how one operates in the world, how one benefits from privilege, how one you know, hurts other people without

Christophe Difo:

thinking and without caring, like these are the things that people, and this is, this is like, this is a both sides problem actually.

Christophe Difo:

But it's way worse on the right.

Christophe Difo:

And, and that is that folks are unwilling to ask themselves those hard questions, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like, we've talked about this a lot in terms of, you know, living an examined life whatever you want to call it, but you're developing a philosophy of life.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Like investigating oneself, I think is something that people would much rather not have to do.

Christophe Difo:

And and, and, and just saying they're all, a bunch of bums is probably one of the easiest ways to get yourself off the hook.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Yeah.

Sean Prophet:

And, and, and what you're saying is like, to your point a committed conservative, right?

Sean Prophet:

Even, okay.

Sean Prophet:

Forget, you know, traditional versus Trump conservatives.

Sean Prophet:

Okay.

Sean Prophet:

Whoever you are, whatever flavor you are, if you've committed yourself to this premise, that the, that the powerful should rule that, you know, that

Sean Prophet:

it's okay to take bribes, whatever the thing is, you know that, that, that you're, you're not really serving the public that you're serving yourself.

Sean Prophet:

And your cronies, you know, in government if you've taken that position, at least you're honest about it, right?

Sean Prophet:

You're not going to sit there and say, you're honest with yourself.

Sean Prophet:

You know, a lot of these guys know what the game is.

Sean Prophet:

They understand that, you know, that they've, they've signed onto a, a power proposition rather than a

Sean Prophet:

And then you've got the liberals who think that, you know, there actually should be public service.

Sean Prophet:

There should be justice that there should be equality that the powerful should have to account for themselves and all those things.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

So both of those, both of those people are pretty committed to their premises and they thought them through.

Sean Prophet:

But then you've got this giant area in the middle of, you know,

Christophe Difo:

most people,

Sean Prophet:

the, the independents or the people who just don't follow politics and those are the people who, you know, that's why this argument

Sean Prophet:

be in either camp and, and, and through their inaction, they actually help the conservatives because it's, it's much easier to break the system.

Sean Prophet:

It's much easier to corrupt the system than it is to establish accountability.

Sean Prophet:

Accountability requires controlling thousands of moving parts.

Sean Prophet:

It requires, you know, making sure that you know, that nobody is corrupted and that, you know, that that system is only as strong as the weakest link.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

If you've got, you know, one person in the chain who was corrupted.

Sean Prophet:

They can start protecting other people in the chain who are corrupted, just goes on and on and on.

Sean Prophet:

So in order for liberals to win and have a government based on public service and accountability, they have to win every day with everyone.

Sean Prophet:

Whereas conservatives just monkey wrench one at a time, one office at a time.

Sean Prophet:

So you know, I just, I, I think that it's "both sides" always favors the oppressor and never justice.

Christophe Difo:

Hundred percent.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and, and, and that is so critical, right.

Christophe Difo:

Because right.

Christophe Difo:

And, it is the silence.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

They break the silence is like benefits the oppressor.

Christophe Difo:

That's another one of those sort of cliches that flies around, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like silence is complicity, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like all these sorts of things.

Christophe Difo:

And I'm glad to see people starting to get off the bench with this George Floyd, and the sort of ensuing

Christophe Difo:

Even people who are.

Christophe Difo:

You know, a relatively liberal right.

Christophe Difo:

Lean liberal but are just basically most of the time checked out because it's a lot easier to just be checked out.

Christophe Difo:

You don't have to wrestle with...

Sean Prophet:

they're conflict averse.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

They don't want, they don't want this, this, this battle, you know, they don't like, you know, everybody gets upset when they start seeing violence

Sean Prophet:

Well,

Christophe Difo:

I love all.

Christophe Difo:

Oh my God.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Oh, the wing or the, the wing, the, the, the left and the right of the wings on the same bird.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Like all that, like all that stuff.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, it's just like, it, it's just, again, the justification for that.

Christophe Difo:

For inaction for just for like, Oh no, you know, all lives matter.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Right, right.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, it's all that in that same ilk of, let's not address the issue, let's just ignore it.

Christophe Difo:

And again, and again, it's steeped in privilege because, right.

Christophe Difo:

Because by virtue of being in the middle of that sort of bell curve, right.

Christophe Difo:

It almost necessarily means that you don't have to worry about it.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

You're not.

Christophe Difo:

At the margins.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

And so this was, yeah, this is really what we have to start getting people to be concerned about is the rule of law.

Sean Prophet:

And it's a great segue from what we were talking about because the whole reason everybody is in the street, you know, has been for several weeks

Sean Prophet:

With police who are supposed to be upholding the rule of law and they did not follow their own rules and there, and they did not follow the laws of the land.

Sean Prophet:

So you saw this nine minute horror film, you know, snuff film, basically of the cops snuffing out this man's life, you know,

Sean Prophet:

But the real problem is so much more widespread.

Sean Prophet:

You know, it's just, this is just the tip of the iceberg, but this whole thing is, it is, it is the breakdown of, you know, again with cops of the

Sean Prophet:

that could prevent this, you know, have been long, long ago quashed by the police unions who really should, they should only be negotiating on behalf

Sean Prophet:

Instead, they become a legal, basically a sort of quasi-legal advocate for police who are accused of wrongdoing and getting them reinstated.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Sean Prophet:

So it's a culture, it's a whole culture of it, you know?

Sean Prophet:

And so we're seeing it, whether it's, whether it's it's at the Supreme court level or whether it's at, at the level of, of, of New York, what'd you say?

Sean Prophet:

What did you what's what's his actual title?

Sean Prophet:

What's Berman's title?

Christophe Difo:

He was an assistant U S attorney for for Manhattan.

Christophe Difo:

So the attorney for a firm had had.

Christophe Difo:

Head, federal attorney in the borough of Manhattan.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

So he's been prevented from doing his job, you know, by the justice department who also by the way, is in charge of all the regulations that,

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

Exactly.

Sean Prophet:

It's all actually lands at the justice department with William Barr and then ultimately with president Trump, because Trump is essentially

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and you know, and, you know, I'm, I'm just sort of I'm baffled or I would be if I, if I didn't know what, all the things

Christophe Difo:

that we've talked about and all the things that we both write about and talk about online it, you know, just about human nature, right?

Christophe Difo:

You know, I remember as a young person as a young person in high school, you know, it was hard for me to wrap my mind around a lot of things, but not in

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

How does an entire country turn a blind eye?

Christophe Difo:

And how does entire country get enveloped by fascism?

Christophe Difo:

Like how does that happen?

Christophe Difo:

Like, it seems so baffling to me, but I do, but it now it's obvious to me.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Because people are conflict averse.

Christophe Difo:

So just like you were saying earlier,

Sean Prophet:

It's the core.

Sean Prophet:

Conflict aversion is the core of how fascism takes over a country.

Christophe Difo:

That's the nub of it, right?

Christophe Difo:

That's the nub of it, because if enough people are not willing to stand up and say, no, I'm not okay with this or not willing to essentially be corrupted.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

We keep talking about corruption because all about corrupting one person then corrupting another person and then another, and that's how it spreads.

Christophe Difo:

And next thing you know, it only takes one fascist to corrupt an entire neighborhood.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

It only takes one fucking fascist to do the entire neighborhood because then.

Christophe Difo:

Everyone's like, yeah, well, I don't want to say X, Y, and Z, because of that person over there, the fascist over there, he's going to tell on me.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So that I, then I start, right.

Christophe Difo:

I start now telling on people too.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And then next thing you know, you've got an entire neighborhood and then an entire nation, right.

Christophe Difo:

Sort of enveloped in this cloud of suspicion and paranoia and, and, and, and again, it's all, it's all about like, well, I don't want my family to get hurt.

Christophe Difo:

You know, I don't want to lose my job.

Christophe Difo:

I don't want to, I don't want to go to the Gulag either.

Christophe Difo:

Like I get it.

Christophe Difo:

I don't want to go to the Gulag either, but this is why it's important to nip fascism in the bud before we even get to that place.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Because, and this is also is that it would be one thing.

Sean Prophet:

If everybody was really concerned about their families and families were together on this, but they're not.

Sean Prophet:

Families are many times really split on the, on these issues, you know, and you have, Trumpism has, has driven a stake, you know, into American families.

Sean Prophet:

I mean, there are so many people who, you know, they just can't can't even have Thanksgiving dinner or, you know, I mean, even

Sean Prophet:

pre COVID, they couldn't have Thanksgiving dinner, the toxic nature of, you know, you get one fascist at the table, right.

Sean Prophet:

And now all of a sudden.

Sean Prophet:

You know, everybody's having to figure out, do I confront this guy?

Sean Prophet:

Do I walk away?

Sean Prophet:

What do I do here?

Sean Prophet:

You know, do I, you know, is this a, and they often choose a family harmony over ethics.

Christophe Difo:

That, and that is so important.

Christophe Difo:

That's so important.

Christophe Difo:

It's so, so important.

Christophe Difo:

And this is why when I, when, when people ask me, you know, especially in the wake of all this stuff.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And we can totally, we should talk about some re talk about race a little bit more deeply later, but yeah.

Christophe Difo:

You know, people have asked me as for, I have a lot, most people I know are white.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, I grew up in that environment.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So you know, so, and they're generally progressives, right?

Christophe Difo:

I certainly don't have a lot of conservatives in my life.

Christophe Difo:

And so people ask me like, Oh, you know, you know, what can I do?

Christophe Difo:

I mean, like, you know you know, and, and, an, how can I be an activist and read White Fragility, right?

Christophe Difo:

Read the books, write, read how to be an anti racist.

Christophe Difo:

I think that's important, but I think the biggest thing.

Christophe Difo:

And maybe, and maybe this is like covered in the book, but it is that confronting being willing to stand up and confront your family members.

Christophe Difo:

Like, I think that is like, right.

Christophe Difo:

And it doesn't mean you have to have a, I have a knock-down drag-out fight, but it does mean that like it's being like, no, actually I am

Christophe Difo:

Like, no!

Sean Prophet:

The thing of the problem with, with, with families is that a lot of these people on the right.

Sean Prophet:

They actually believe that they're ethical.

Sean Prophet:

They actually believe they have, they have a whole series of justifications as to why they want to have, you know, ethnic nationalism, for example,

Sean Prophet:

Horribly unscientific things.

Sean Prophet:

But if you believed all of those things, then they might have an ethical stance.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

I mean, I, I still, like, I could argue all of those all the way on down the line, but still when you can figure that there's, there's some point they could

Sean Prophet:

And they were, you know, that they were, they had a right.

Sean Prophet:

Just to hold that opinion.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

And you should not dismiss them, but, but in, in, in point of fact justice does not, is not subject to those those arguments, right?

Sean Prophet:

I mean, you know, you can't, if somebody is openly advocating for injustice, you know, they have to, then

Sean Prophet:

And, you know, scientific racism, the, the, the idea that, you know, eugenics even, you know, going back to so if

Sean Prophet:

And a lot of people aren't that sophisticated.

Sean Prophet:

They will, they will just, you know, openly you know, say and do racist things.

Sean Prophet:

You know, they, they, they, you know, the whole idea of, you know, "he shouldn't have resisted."

Sean Prophet:

"if you don't commit a crime, you don't have to worry about being shot" and all of those associated justifications, they don't

Christophe Difo:

sure.

Sean Prophet:

But if anybody who is a, like the more thoughtful a person was, the more intellectual person was the more, when they start to go to the right

Sean Prophet:

So now if you talk to that person, You're not even agreeing on the basic facts of humanity.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Sean Prophet:

Exactly.

Sean Prophet:

Multicultural societies don't work and we shouldn't encourage them.

Sean Prophet:

We should separate them.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

It ends up becoming more refined, right?

Christophe Difo:

The further you go to the right.

Christophe Difo:

But like, but the, but the problem is that it necessarily, right.

Christophe Difo:

It always rests on the basic idea of a hierarchy.

Christophe Difo:

Always always, always, always, always, always, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like, no matter how you try and spin it and justify it, right.

Christophe Difo:

Well, one of the, one of the new favorites I heard because right, the genetic inferiority argument is, has been largely rejected and disposed

Christophe Difo:

the argument, but like what, like, but, and unless you're just a flat-out racist, but like, if you don't think of yourself as that, that way.

Christophe Difo:

So now the argument becomes like, well, black culture is, is, is the problem, right?

Christophe Difo:

So it's not that black people necessarily like black, right.

Christophe Difo:

Because right.

Christophe Difo:

Cause then you can point to someone like, I don't know, Colin Powell or that other guy, he looks like a, I don't know.

Christophe Difo:

He's like, geez, a Colonel something.

Christophe Difo:

And he looks like he looks like a black cop and like every single movie, every single black cop in every movie.

Christophe Difo:

And you've got like the haircut.

Christophe Difo:

Anyway, I remember what his name is.

Christophe Difo:

I'll remember it for next time anyway, but these are the point of those guys, the guys that are just like, you know who just basically

Christophe Difo:

Like those are the black people we want, but black culture right.

Christophe Difo:

Is lazy.

Christophe Difo:

It's X, Y, and Z.

Christophe Difo:

And, but again, but it always comes down to the same thing, this hierarchy, right?

Christophe Difo:

That right.

Christophe Difo:

That there needs to be people at the bottom who deserve to be there.

Christophe Difo:

And by the way, the police job is to make sure they are there.

Christophe Difo:

They stay there.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

That's part of the police's job.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And that is always when it comes down to it and it's always intellectually dishonest, but it's just a question of whether, you know, it's a sophisticated

Christophe Difo:

sort of intellectual dishonesty or that just like you say, just like unsophisticated, just like just blabbering, just racist ass things, you know?

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

And, and, and so, and here's other point that I realized one day when I was talking to one of these people

Sean Prophet:

They haven't invented anything by themselves.

Sean Prophet:

You know, they did, you know, blah, blah, blah, this horrible, horrible shit.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

Absolutely.

Sean Prophet:

It's, it's demonstrably false.

Sean Prophet:

But they believe it.

Sean Prophet:

I'm going okay.

Sean Prophet:

Just for the sake of the argument.

Sean Prophet:

Let's let's just say that they're, that they're that there is something inferior about people of color.

Sean Prophet:

Okay.

Sean Prophet:

If that were true, wouldn't it argue for spending more resources and giving more help?

Sean Prophet:

To those people, right?

Sean Prophet:

Because we have somebody who's, you know, who's, who's handicapped or somebody who's, who's mentally challenged, right.

Sean Prophet:

Education.

Sean Prophet:

We give them special treatment, you know unless we're fascist and then you just put 'em in the oven.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Sean Prophet:

Yup.

Sean Prophet:

Yup.

Sean Prophet:

Yup.

Sean Prophet:

That's what, that's, what it comes down to is you can, you can, you can take the same set of facts, you know if, if you

Sean Prophet:

could, if you could allow that there was a disparity between, you know, between races, which isn't even a scientific concept.

Sean Prophet:

If you're a liberal or Democrat who believes in justice, you would have to argue for more resources, not less and better treatment, not worse.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And this, and this gets to the ethics argument.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Because I'm like, wait, it look like, right.

Christophe Difo:

Let's assume, let's assume that like, again, we're assuming for them, for the sake of argument that people

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Cultural, whatever.

Christophe Difo:

So like, you know, if that's the argument then like, it is obviously don't give them, give people more resources.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Cause you don't like affirmative action.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

You don't like welfare, even though welfare goes to much more white people than black people, but whatever, like, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like you don't like any of these programs.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Cause you think they all go to black people.

Christophe Difo:

And so my question, to that conservative is, what is your argument?

Christophe Difo:

So like what do you think we should do then?

Christophe Difo:

Like, is it that people should just like, just--

-- Sean Prophet:

die in the terms of like deny them resources, deny them healthcare.

-- Sean Prophet:

And the answer is yes, right?

Christophe Difo:

The answer is yes.

Christophe Difo:

And that's, and that, and that's fascism-- the ovens are just like an extrapolation from that same concept.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Get rid of them.

Sean Prophet:

Neglect is the same as the oven.

Sean Prophet:

Really?

Christophe Difo:

Exactly, exactly.

Sean Prophet:

Widespread neglect for millions of people.

Sean Prophet:

Don't have healthcare, millions people don't go to the doctor when they should.

Sean Prophet:

And all those things that neglect kills them just as certainly as if you all rounded them up, it just takes longer.

Christophe Difo:

It just takes longer.

Christophe Difo:

It just takes longer.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

I mean it right.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, and again, this gets to, the intellectual dishonesty that, that you have to engage in, if you are going to try and maintain these positions

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

We need to talk about libertarianism, but like when this really first became evident to me, I mean, it started out in 2010 with the tea party.

Sean Prophet:

Okay.

Sean Prophet:

But really the 2012 Debates the 2012 debates, right?

Sean Prophet:

When one of the moderators asks, ask, you know, what should happen?

Sean Prophet:

You know, what, what should happen when you know, somebody doesn't have a health care, should we just let them die?

Sean Prophet:

And you hear, you hear multiple people in the audience calling out "Yes, let them die."

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

I have that recording.

Sean Prophet:

It used to be the open on the open to my old show.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

And that is, this is when fascism really, really came to America is the moment when at a public debate people were openly willing to declare

Sean Prophet:

And that's, and that's a really scary moment.

Sean Prophet:

And so, so that, that was only eight years ago.

Sean Prophet:

But now we're to the point where, you know, you start talking to these the, the white supremacists and they

Sean Prophet:

And what they mean when they say that they literally mean, you know, having, having people live in separate countries, like, yeah.

Christophe Difo:

Oh yeah.

Sean Prophet:

Ethnic cleansing, you know, in a, in a, in a way.

Sean Prophet:

I mean, how else do you accomplish it?

Sean Prophet:

When you have a, when you have a multicultural society like ours, it's already multi.

Sean Prophet:

It's not like it's not going to become multi.

Sean Prophet:

It already is multicultural.

Sean Prophet:

So how do you go to a white nationalist society?

Sean Prophet:

You have to deport or kill, those are the only two options.

Sean Prophet:

, Christophe Difo: Absolutely.

Sean Prophet:

And I think that's an important fact, right?

Sean Prophet:

Because every time any large group of people gets moved, that means it is an atrocity, right?

Sean Prophet:

The trail of tears is the most obvious example, but like it like in modern history, but, but, but also, you know, during the, during

Sean Prophet:

during world war II the Bataan death March, was another one where like a large group of American and allied prisoners were moved.

Sean Prophet:

And I mean the percentage of death on that walk.

Sean Prophet:

Is astonishing, daunting.

Sean Prophet:

And again, these are the, and that's in PR in wartime.

Sean Prophet:

But again if you are talking about like ethnic nationalism and like deporting every person of color in America, I mean, like, how do you think that looks and

Sean Prophet:

And, and, and right.

Sean Prophet:

And these people want that resistance in a lot of ways.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

Because then that justifies that justifies a lot of that crap, crap.

Sean Prophet:

Killings, whatever it is.

Sean Prophet:

And so it's just, yeah, it's ultimately, there's no way to get around the fact that if you don't take care of everyone, if you don't expand your,

Sean Prophet:

Like who are we as Americans and, and the, the white nationalist say it's whites Christians, you know, whatever, I'm sure liberals say it's all of us

Sean Prophet:

and liberalism says we must consider all Americans to be part of our family we are one family, you know, and that means that you know, that, that some of

Sean Prophet:

And that's what brings you into affirmative action and all those things, because we live together where we don't have these marginalized people who are living in

Christophe Difo:

Disaster.

Sean Prophet:

How do you accomplish that?

Sean Prophet:

And, and the, the, the right wing answer is, get rid of it.

Sean Prophet:

Get rid of the problem.

Sean Prophet:

And, the liberal answer is include everyone.

Sean Prophet:

And there's just, there's almost no way, like every discussion that takes place between right.

Sean Prophet:

And left ultimately is, is, is referencing that divide.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

And, and I I'd like to Sort of, go back kind of a little bit to what we were talking about before.

Christophe Difo:

We've been talking a lot about like fascist and right-wing nationalists and all that kind of stuff, but I want to keep hitting, I want to hit on this

Christophe Difo:

because it's easy then for people watching this or people that we talk to online, you and I all the time to say like, well, I'm not a Nazi, right.

Christophe Difo:

I'm not a fascist.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And I I'm, I'm on the right, but I'm not X, Y, and Z.

Christophe Difo:

And again, I think it's really important.

Christophe Difo:

I think that to, to highlight that, you know, like straight up fascism, as we think about it is just an extrapolation of.

Christophe Difo:

It is just like a little bit more of an extreme version of the right in this country right now.

Christophe Difo:

And certainly there are that the actual right and white nationalists and the paramilitary guys and all that kind of stuff right now.

Christophe Difo:

But.

Christophe Difo:

Even the people who call themselves, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like sort of traditional conservatives, like, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like if you, if you take their reasoning to its logical conclusion, the answer is still the same.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

The answer is still is that in 2012, the person at that debate said it out loud.

Christophe Difo:

But, but, but that was always true right.

Christophe Difo:

The answer to no health care for, for, for everyone means people die unnecessarily while other people live in privilege.

Christophe Difo:

Like that is so again, again, I just want to hit that point that like, even that sort of quote, moderate Republicans, or the, the,

Christophe Difo:

You're essentially saying like, no, no, no, you don't get this just because you're, you're not us.

Christophe Difo:

That is the, that is the nub of the argument.

Christophe Difo:

All the entire right.

Christophe Difo:

And again, this ghost that you're talking about,

Sean Prophet:

There's a lie.

Sean Prophet:

And that is that you don't hear it so much anymore because you know, people are just are either Trumpers or they're not, you know, but they'll be used to be

Christophe Difo:

Oh yeah.

Sean Prophet:

That is the biggest lie in the world.

Sean Prophet:

Because if you want a tax cut.

Sean Prophet:

If you are saying, if you're somebody who says, I want to pay less taxes, what you're saying is that you somehow, the money that

Sean Prophet:

And a good portion of that money was spent to help people.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

So everybody wants to pay less taxes.

Sean Prophet:

I get it.

Sean Prophet:

You know, they think, okay, that's my money.

Sean Prophet:

You're taking my money, you know?

Sean Prophet:

But what they also don't realize is that most of the tax cuts that have happened have gone to the very wealthy.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Will class tax rates have stayed very, very close in somewhere between a 15 and 30% rate for forever.

Sean Prophet:

I mean, they don't move, you know, and, and whereas you're super wealthy, you know, a lot of your income isn't, you know, you don't pay payroll taxes.

Sean Prophet:

No, there's no social security from somebody who's, who's a stock trader, so they're only paying capital gains

Sean Prophet:

So it's either 15 or 20% that they're paying in their, in and their income.

Sean Prophet:

Whereas the middle-class is paying somewhere around 30 ish, you know, so

Christophe Difo:

with a lot less money, right?

Sean Prophet:

So the tax cutters cannot be socially liberal.

Sean Prophet:

They may be social liberal on saying things.

Sean Prophet:

I think you should be able to smoke pot.

Sean Prophet:

I think...

Christophe Difo:

...always a classic example.

Christophe Difo:

If you want an abortion to have an abortion

Sean Prophet:

Have an abortion, get gay married, you know?

Sean Prophet:

...live with three different women, you know, whatever you want,

Christophe Difo:

whatever you want, don't take any of my money.

Christophe Difo:

And again, like, you know, and, or my favorites, taxation is theft, which just like, is just.

Christophe Difo:

That's one of the ones, man, that just gets me, that just gets,

Sean Prophet:

it gets the hell out of me too.

Sean Prophet:

And that gets you back to the libertarians who say, well, I never signed a social contract.

Sean Prophet:

You know, it's like you drive on the road, you drive on the road, don't you?

Sean Prophet:

And they're like, well, I pay gas taxes.

Sean Prophet:

What would, I guess the only way to make this clear to libertarians is to turn everything into a user fee, right?

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

You know and that, and then maybe they would understand how that would work, but it's, it's, again, it's just more, it's more intellectual dishonesty

Sean Prophet:

that comes up with this idea that, you know, somehow you can live in a civilization and have all of its protections and not have to pay for it.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly, exactly.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and, and, and, you know, and it's always very, very telling that the libertarian, you know, who is libertarian, right?

Christophe Difo:

The libertarian is a white young to middle age, man.

Christophe Difo:

That is well off, relatively well off.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Not wanting for much.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

You know, that's always a libertarian because the libertarian thinks that he doesn't need.

Christophe Difo:

And I say he, because he's almost always a "he"and he thinks he doesn't he doesn't need social services at all.

Christophe Difo:

And so since he doesn't need them, no one else should need them.

Christophe Difo:

And and again, it's always this intellectual dishonesty packaged in.

Christophe Difo:

"Oh, but don't worry.

Christophe Difo:

I think everyone should be able to smoke pot.

Christophe Difo:

So I'm actually not a bad guy," right.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Well, the very, the, the.

Sean Prophet:

Underlying premise of that argument that you just absolutely cannot get away from is a misunderstanding of the concept of privilege, right?

Sean Prophet:

Because the, the, the, the white libertarian right has, has, has grown up with privilege.

Sean Prophet:

They've grown up bathed in public services that just kind of magically appear that they can rely on the police to protect them.

Sean Prophet:

And they'll all, Oh, well, I can't count on the police.

Sean Prophet:

You know, that takes, takes them half an hour to get to my house.

Sean Prophet:

And meanwhile, I've already been robbed.

Sean Prophet:

Well, how often have you been robbed?

Sean Prophet:

How often do you think it's the black people in the black neighborhoods who are getting robbed and where there's

Sean Prophet:

They can't get it, the white people can get it, but they don't need it.

Christophe Difo:

Yeah.

Christophe Difo:

That's so true.

Christophe Difo:

That's so true.

Sean Prophet:

But so there's no way to separate the, this, this concept.

Sean Prophet:

And that is why a lot of white people react so strongly and violently to the concept of privilege, because the way it collapses the entire libertarian

Sean Prophet:

Once you recognize that that comes from a place of privilege and that your independence comes at a cost.

Sean Prophet:

You don't like seeing people sleeping on the street in their own filth, well then pay taxes.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

That's just part of it.

Christophe Difo:

That's just part of it.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And like, and, and, and the idea that a civilization can function without, I mean, taxes without a government

Christophe Difo:

And you know, I'm one of my favorites.

Christophe Difo:

I know it's not really fair, but but it's one of my favorite ones.

Christophe Difo:

Like, Oh, you want to be liberated, go to Somalia, go to Somalia.

Christophe Difo:

You know, that's what happens when there's no government, right.

Christophe Difo:

Fiefdoms centrally appear and private armies.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

I mean that, that, that, that like mercenary army that's what happens.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So, so, so like it's like it's every dystopia.

Christophe Difo:

Like every dystopic movie out there, right?

Christophe Difo:

Every like end of the world scenario, movie, like that's what happens when there's no one overarching sort of power that can overpower everyone else.

Sean Prophet:

Once you give up on a, a government with a military under civilian control, right?

Sean Prophet:

That's the key to ever having, having a government that controls the police force and the military separately.

Sean Prophet:

Very separately, you can't have the military enforcing on internal enforcement, right?

Sean Prophet:

You don't want to have that, but it all requires that accountable control of the power.

Sean Prophet:

And that leads us right back to our discussion about the police forces.

Sean Prophet:

Again,

Christophe Difo:

Yes, now we can get back to the police forces, which I think is an important one.

Sean Prophet:

So, what do you think about defund the police as a slogan?

Christophe Difo:

Wow.

Christophe Difo:

Wow.

Christophe Difo:

I think, you know, I've had the, you know, this is a great topic.

Christophe Difo:

And we, and we've talked a little bit about it already, but I, but I offline, but but you know, I, my initial reaction to it.

Christophe Difo:

So I was at a at a the only demonstration that I went to was here in Jersey city.

Christophe Difo:

I live in Jersey city, New Jersey and You know, my wife and I, and several of our friends, we went down there, everyone's wearing masks.

Christophe Difo:

It was great, great demonstration.

Christophe Difo:

But one of the things that the woman was saying, and she was 18 years old up there, like she was one of the

Christophe Difo:

She's going to, I think, Morehouse in the fall or no Howard in the fall.

Christophe Difo:

Brilliant woman.

Christophe Difo:

Anyway, she's up there.

Christophe Difo:

She's talking.

Christophe Difo:

She's like, did she like "defund the police"?

Christophe Difo:

And she was like, really in, you know, and, and, and so like, my initial reaction was just sort of like, man, like, you know, so is that smart, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like, is that is that, is that practical?

Christophe Difo:

And and, but the more I thought about it you know, and I think you made this argument really well, and that is that, you know,

Sean Prophet:

Radical.

Sean Prophet:

Radical.

Sean Prophet:

Just want anarchy.

Sean Prophet:

We just want the streets, just a blaze, you know,

Christophe Difo:

Actually especially want black and Latino thugs walking around your neighborhood and raping your Lily white daughters.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

Like that is like the image that's that they're trying to evoke.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

That's classic classic tactic.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Christophe Difo:

This was like Jim, like thousands of black men were lynched on this exact premise right in the South and across this country.

Christophe Difo:

So, so, so if they're going to do that anyway, why not just say what we mean?

Christophe Difo:

And then we're going to have to have a public opinion war, no matter what, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like, so yeah.

Sean Prophet:

So I think a couple of things and that is that I have literally had to wade through probably five dozen of my white

Sean Prophet:

friends o, friends of friends, you know, taking issue with this idea that we shouldn't be saying "defund the police" it's a problem.

Sean Prophet:

And, you know, and, and coming up with alternative slogans that they think are better.

Sean Prophet:

Sure, sure.

Sean Prophet:

Reform or reframe or rebrand or whatever you want to call it they, they have some other thing that is short of defunding the police.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

And what I came to is I was thinking about the trajectory of the black lives matter slogan, which when it first came, you

Sean Prophet:

You know, white people you know, black people were for it.

Sean Prophet:

Obviously a white people were like, didn't, they didn't quite know what to do with it.

Sean Prophet:

And then they came all lives matter.

Sean Prophet:

Blue lives matter, all these reasons, retorts to it.

Sean Prophet:

Let's start it out with the survey.

Sean Prophet:

The public opinion survey on black lives matter five years ago was like 10 or 15 points underwater.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Most Americans thought it didn't like the slogan didn't agree with it thought it was divisive and all these kinds of things.

Sean Prophet:

It's now like, plus 25 or plus 30 and the entire country, you look at the protests.

Sean Prophet:

Mostly white faces are out there.

Sean Prophet:

You know, absolutely not saying, I mean, every black person is out there, but there's a lot of white people out there.

Sean Prophet:

So you have this situation where now it's being painted on the streets of every American city, black lives matter in letters that you can see from space.

Sean Prophet:

It's amazing.

Sean Prophet:

It's amazing.

Sean Prophet:

And that's what happened to a slogan that started out 10 or 15 points underwater because it became clear that that was the essential truth of the

Sean Prophet:

And you know, all of that.

Sean Prophet:

So, so when you hear defund the police, it's like, yes, we have to explain it.

Sean Prophet:

But what I'm saying to my white friends about this, I'm going look, guys, you know, this was invented by the black lives matter movement.

Sean Prophet:

They came up with the slogan.

Sean Prophet:

They started using it.

Sean Prophet:

And now all of a sudden, everyone is saying it, right.

Sean Prophet:

And now you're gonna come along and say, Oh, we should have focus group.

Sean Prophet:

Oh, we should be, should have figured this out.

Sean Prophet:

Let's get a marketing guy here to figure out what the best slogan is.

Sean Prophet:

And it's like, no, this is the slogan.

Sean Prophet:

This is the one that it resonates.

Sean Prophet:

And it resonates because it pisses off the right wing.

Sean Prophet:

All right, exactly.

Sean Prophet:

If you're going to already deal with this trope that you're talking about, about the thuggish person of color,

Sean Prophet:

And it's going to be already used against us, but from top to bottom of the right wing you know, a snarl-ocracy, you know,

Sean Prophet:

And already saying all those things.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

So, so it is, it is best strategy wise for us to embrace it because it will be used against us anyway.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly, exactly.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, you know, and I think, well, you also brought up a really great point the other day and I sort of piggyback on a post I, or

Christophe Difo:

I think it was in response to someone's it's like someone, a white, progressive white person who was concerned, you know, had these concerns.

Christophe Difo:

And, without directly accusing her of whitesplaining, because I don't think that's where she was coming from.

Christophe Difo:

So you're like, all right.

Christophe Difo:

So the black lives matter people were in their office, wherever the hell their office is, you know?

Christophe Difo:

And they're like, you know, do you think they didn't think about that?

Christophe Difo:

Do you really think they were like, you know, I'm not, again, they probably didn't, you know, focus group it.

Christophe Difo:

Like, and like, and have marketing people in.

Christophe Difo:

Maybe they did, but whatever.

Christophe Difo:

But the point is a bunch of people that had been running a, like what has turned out to be a wildly successful organization.

Sean Prophet:

The most political successful political organization of the last.

Sean Prophet:

10 years.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly easily.

Christophe Difo:

So it's just like, all right.

Christophe Difo:

So we're sitting around the table and you know, there was probably a lot of ideas, probably they probably brainstormed

Christophe Difo:

And, and so for, for now, for white folks to come to the hand and be like, no, no, no, no, no, you don't know what you're talking about.

Christophe Difo:

Here is here.

Christophe Difo:

Let me, let me bring in my marketing folks.

Christophe Difo:

They're going to tell you what you should be saying.

Christophe Difo:

It's smacks of whitesplaining like one Oh one, right?

Sean Prophet:

It is.

Sean Prophet:

And again, it gets back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the show.

Sean Prophet:

And that is the.

Sean Prophet:

Concern trolling.

Sean Prophet:

Okay.

Sean Prophet:

Concern, trolling used tone, policing, whatever you want to call it.

Sean Prophet:

That has been used forever to shut down social justice movements and it's also been used to shut down secularism.

Sean Prophet:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

Anytime you criticize religion, people go, Oh, you can't say that you're alienating potential allies.

Sean Prophet:

There's so many religions.

Christophe Difo:

Oh, that one.

Christophe Difo:

Oh, that one drives me freaking nuts.

Sean Prophet:

This is the same thing, right?

Sean Prophet:

Cause basically what white people are saying is you don't want to say, defund the police because you're alienating people who are on your side.

Sean Prophet:

Right, right.

Sean Prophet:

The conflict aversion tone, policing and concern trolling are all part of the same you know, central force of so-called moderates

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

So this is it,

Sean Prophet:

Revenge of the white moderate, right?

Christophe Difo:

Aha.

Christophe Difo:

This is like right out of letters from Birmingham jail, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like right.

Christophe Difo:

The white moderate, who says, I agree with your with your aims, but not your, but not your tactics.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And it comes down to this whole idea of not wanting to be uncomfortable.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And we talked about this earlier, like Kaepernick, he was under, talk about being underwater, right.

Christophe Difo:

Talk about being underwater.

Christophe Difo:

And now, and by the way, I love this guy because he had stayed in perfect football shape for this entire time.

Christophe Difo:

So that at any time he could be called into the NFL, just like that he could play right now.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

I love that about him.

Christophe Difo:

I loved that about him and this guy, this guy is now.

Christophe Difo:

But we talked about this.

Christophe Difo:

He's going to be looked back on as a civil rights icon.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And people don't understand that.

Christophe Difo:

That's what people thought about MLK also White America hated him.

Christophe Difo:

Right?

Sean Prophet:

So now, now all the conservatives have jumped on the bandwagon and saying, Oh, MLK, we support

Sean Prophet:

You know, the guy was murdered.

Sean Prophet:

Okay.

Sean Prophet:

He was shot by a white supremacist, you know?

Sean Prophet:

And, and so you have that, that Kaepernick had to be willing to lose his career, to be vilified.

Sean Prophet:

To the point of, of of losing the thing that was the most.

Sean Prophet:

Well, it actually wasn't the most valuable to them because if it had been, he wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't have done it.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

Wouldn't have kneeled he wouldn't have kneeled if it was that valuable to him.

Sean Prophet:

So, the reason why he deserves to be a civil rights icon is because he clearly put social justice above his career.

Sean Prophet:

And that's absolutely stellar.

Sean Prophet:

That is stellar.

Christophe Difo:

Those are real heroes, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like we talk about heroes in our lives with like, and all this kind of stuff.

Christophe Difo:

But like, you know, that, like we talk about sacrifice and like the right, especially of course loves to talk about the military.

Christophe Difo:

And and, and, and by the way, like, I like.

Christophe Difo:

For all of you out there.

Christophe Difo:

I am, I am not anti-military I'm not a pacifist.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

You know, in fact, you know, like I, the use of force is important.

Christophe Difo:

I respect the military and what they do.

Christophe Difo:

And in fact, I'm actually a student of military and military history.

Christophe Difo:

So I care about it a lot.

Christophe Difo:

Especially the Vietnam war.

Christophe Difo:

But the, but the, but like, but you know, but those folks, right.

Christophe Difo:

The folks that go out there and fight like good for them, that's important.

Christophe Difo:

But you know, they're not sacrificing their careers.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

They're not, they're not sacrificing their social, their social standing.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So like, right.

Christophe Difo:

And that is in some ways, even more difficult.

Sean Prophet:

The warrior class in society has always been held in a place of honor.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So, and they should, and they should.

Sean Prophet:

And, you know, I think also without the warrior class in society, You know law enforcement, right?

Sean Prophet:

There is no rule of law, right?

Sean Prophet:

And you can even look at the military in a properly constituted world, if it was under the governance of the United nations and, and, and properly

Sean Prophet:

handled the militaries would also be law enforcement because you're enforcing international law, you're enforcing human rights and things like that.

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

So ultimately, if we had a unitary government for the world, then all military action would be police action.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

It would be accountable.

Christophe Difo:

You can't be a pacifist and support the rule of law because without a force to back the rule of law, I mean,

Christophe Difo:

You cannot have rule of law without, without the force to back it up.

Christophe Difo:

It just has to be a...

Christophe Difo:

exactly.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, like, I like to think otherwise it's a completely misunderstand, I think human nature and, and, and, and, and it under misunderstand human

Christophe Difo:

nature in groups, I'd be like, I need, like you just like, and this is the whole green part of what the green party and all that kind of stuff.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Like, and, and the, and the, and sort of the hippie the site type stuff, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like, like, would this love everybody, et cetera, like that sort of approach, right.

Christophe Difo:

The let's go to burning man or whatever.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And they live in a commune.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Like the, like the problem with that is exactly this is that like, I think Obama will all his faults, he, I think he understood this

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Because you know, because he realized, he realized that, look, you need to, like, you can't just allow the

Christophe Difo:

Like, you know, we'd like our, we have interests.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And and again, like, You know, and a properly constituted military that is driven by justice, right.

Christophe Difo:

That is, that is that is what we ought to be striving for and, and, and working toward.

Christophe Difo:

And I think he understood that in a way that certainly not the neo-cons and, you know, And there are like, you know, sort of colonialism...

Sean Prophet:

he had Obama inherited or see inherited, you know, situations of conflict that he didn't create.

Sean Prophet:

And so now as a president of United States, he's, he's required to do things that maintain, you know, balance of power, whatever, whatever

Sean Prophet:

you're talking about in the world, you know, you've got gotta, either deal with it now are you dealing with a much worse problem later?

Sean Prophet:

And that's, I think the calculus he was having to make in those drone strikes and everything else like that.

Sean Prophet:

Because back to your point about burning man, I mean, so burning man is this is a sort of idealistic, you know, hippie dippy

Sean Prophet:

They're having a good time.

Sean Prophet:

They're bartering, there's no money.

Sean Prophet:

But what look at what burning man is burning man is protected by you know, a nation that's the strongest it's the strongest military in the world, you know,

Sean Prophet:

state police, you know, who were there, who are actually, you know, going around and actually, you know, actively patrolling the site, that could not exist.

Sean Prophet:

You could not have this idealistic, communal experience without the force to back it up much as a lot of people there, you

Sean Prophet:

know, hated the fact that cops were there, you know, imagine what would have happened if there was no force available.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, Jesus, I mean, you know, you know you know, the, you know, there, there was a Woodstock 2, like there was too, like in the

Christophe Difo:

There was like another Woodstock.

Christophe Difo:

And I mean with, with, with very few and there was two of them and then the second one devolved into absolute chaos.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And presumably there were police there, but to some extent, but that just puts things in perspective.

Christophe Difo:

Like, you know, you can't.

Christophe Difo:

Just...

Sean Prophet:

The classic example was Altamont where they put the, they put the hell's angels in charge of security

Christophe Difo:

I don't remember how he got here, but yeah, but I mean, but I guess the rule of law question, I think

Christophe Difo:

And I think that's a theme that is sort of like, sort of sort of through everything we've talked about here.

Christophe Difo:

And that being, we could be talking about it being actively undermined in the undermined by the current

Christophe Difo:

Sort of, undermined we've also talked about and in terms of, and, and now in terms of police brutality, right, we're also now seeing the George

Christophe Difo:

Floyd incident and of course, in the, ensuing protests and the reaction of the, the violent reaction of the police to those protests, right.

Christophe Difo:

We are seeing that kind of breakdown in the rule of law.

Christophe Difo:

I think it's really important.

Christophe Difo:

We talked about the police unions, right?

Christophe Difo:

Because they stand in the way of that.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And this is, gets back to the funding, the police question, which is like, this is why you have to kind of start from scratch, right.

Christophe Difo:

Because like, that's the only way to get around.

Christophe Difo:

The police union is, you know, you look at Camden, Camden, Camden, New Jersey is a great, like one of the shining example of this.

Sean Prophet:

Well, right.

Sean Prophet:

And so what, what, what essentially, they're the people who unconditionally support cops, the blue lives matter folks.

Sean Prophet:

You know, what they're telling us is that we have two choices.

Sean Prophet:

We can either accept their protection with all of its corruption and flaws and protecting bad cops, or we go without, you know, although they're

Sean Prophet:

the, the third option, which is in the middle, which is you have accountable cops under political control, who are not, who are not shooting people.

Sean Prophet:

You know, who are conflict deescalating who are referring people to social workers or drug treatment rather than arresting

Sean Prophet:

them, you know, who are you know, not going to shoot somebody in the back, who's running away, you know, all these things.

Sean Prophet:

That's the third option.

Sean Prophet:

And that's what defund the police means.

Sean Prophet:

I think that's what absolutely, because what you're defending is the bureaucracy that has protected the cops.

Sean Prophet:

You're giving the power back to the city council, the mayor to be able to actually, keep these police forces in check.

Christophe Difo:

Absolutely.

Christophe Difo:

We're talking about accountability and we keep talking about this, right.

Christophe Difo:

We talked about, but like basic accountability.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and and, and in one of my favorites is that conservatives rail against unions, you know, like how corrupt

Christophe Difo:

But like this union is, it's a caricature of a bad union, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like, we're talking about like some Jimmy Hoffa type shit, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like, right.

Christophe Difo:

You know, like yeah.

Christophe Difo:

This is the quintessential thuggish union.

Christophe Difo:

And of course they just did this entire pass.

Christophe Difo:

And again, it's because they're in there, they're in the right, that there is a union that works for them.

Christophe Difo:

We talked about the earlier on, we talked about the hypocrisy, right, right, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like you hate unions unless the unions are actually like, you know Brown shirts that keep their, keep their, their, their boots on people's necks.

Sean Prophet:

And this is another point to why defund the police is so important because you can actually get into a situation where

Sean Prophet:

if you are the mayor or the city council, and you try to challenge the police union, they may be able to put up legal roadblocks.

Sean Prophet:

You know because of agreements and contracts that were signed, you have to honor this contract, you know, you can't you can't change the contract.

Sean Prophet:

You can't, you know, we have the final say on police misconduct, right.

Sean Prophet:

And so exactly by defunding the police, you create a new department of public safety.

Sean Prophet:

The police union is no longer in charge of that.

Sean Prophet:

So you take the police department, you bring its budget down to maybe 10%, you know, you have them writing.

Sean Prophet:

I don't know, you have them writing you know, doing homicide investigations and, you know, whatever things that you want cops to do.

Sean Prophet:

When you leave you, you, you, you take that money transferred over into the public safety department where a lot of these

Sean Prophet:

calls that really shouldn't be handled with violence are able to be handled by a social worker or a mental health professional.

Sean Prophet:

Or a, you know, something, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not an expert in these subjects, but I think...

Christophe Difo:

but your point is a good one, right.

Christophe Difo:

Because and, and I there's, there's a really great police chief.

Christophe Difo:

That's almost like an oxymoron, but there's a really great police chief down in Dallas.

Christophe Difo:

It turns out and black guy, interestingly not that the myths, neither here nor there, but he is And, you know, and he, I heard him talk about

Christophe Difo:

police officers go and he was talking about, you know, how the pro one of the problems is, is that as, and this goes back to the taxes issue too, as

Christophe Difo:

So homeless people on the street is the most obvious example.

Christophe Difo:

One of the more obvious examples, right?

Christophe Difo:

Because a lot of these people have mental illnesses and I mean, actually most of them people don't, but like the only people that you, the

Christophe Difo:

Like these are people with these people overwhelmingly with psychological disorders.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

So, but the point is.

Christophe Difo:

That like, if you start actually funding those things and let police actually do what police are supposed to do, maybe you start getting

Christophe Difo:

And I think you can then shrink departments, right?

Christophe Difo:

And you can need, you can have detectives, right.

Christophe Difo:

Who go out and literally solve crimes.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Maybe get more of those people.

Christophe Difo:

So actually more crimes actually get solved because they don't usually.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Also like police officers are, are trained, you know, like if you are trained in violence, which is, they are right, like, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like, right.

Christophe Difo:

That is their, that is their solution to conflict.

Christophe Difo:

That's how they are training.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Is violence.

Christophe Difo:

And to them every, like every, if you're a hammer nail analogy, right?

Christophe Difo:

Like every situation looks like.

Christophe Difo:

It looks like a situation that should be resolved with violence.

Christophe Difo:

And so we shouldn't be so surprised that this is the outcome when we train these people to do that and then put them into

Sean Prophet:

Right.

Sean Prophet:

Well, and there's also a cost issue and this is we're getting close, I think we were an hour now, but I just want

Sean Prophet:

And I think there's been a couple of other conservative States that actually found that it was cheaper to give homeless people homes than it was to

Sean Prophet:

ambulances running and taking them to the hospital, the medical, bills, the drug problems that got worse, you know, all of these things that happen with,

Sean Prophet:

They're they're extremely expensive.

Sean Prophet:

So if you take some of this money from policing, which is reactive, right.

Sean Prophet:

And you shift it to proactive programs that actually, you know, but then you run smack dab into what you're talking.

Sean Prophet:

When you always talk about the just world fallacy, and that's what prevents, you know what cause when people think that, "well, you're

Sean Prophet:

always going to have the destitute, you're always going to have the poor, they're poor and destitute because they couldn't compete."

Sean Prophet:

And that's the way the world should be.

Sean Prophet:

So if you believe that, then you, then, then you're, then you're only too willing to put your money into reactive programs.

Sean Prophet:

But if you believe that the world should be a flatter hierarchy, that there should be some sort of social justice

Sean Prophet:

that everybody has the right to basic food and shelter, then you're willing to put more money into you know, into, into that.

Sean Prophet:

And I, I think so.

Sean Prophet:

You know, and it's just so funny how the most, the biggest flashpoints of right left in the past, you know, a couple of decades

Sean Prophet:

have really been things like healthcare and policing, and that is, they distill down these issues of who gets what in society.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly right.

Christophe Difo:

That's exactly right.

Christophe Difo:

I mean, it ends up becoming these issues of distribution.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And you know, and, and it's called Liberty to be able to, to hoard everything for yourself.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

It just cause, cause it says it's called Liberty or whatever.

Christophe Difo:

And and not having to invest in your community is called Liberty.

Christophe Difo:

Although conservatives are obviously a very, very good in they're very small communities, right?

Christophe Difo:

They're actually usually more giving within their little tribe.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

But outside of that tribe...

Sean Prophet:

it's about expanding the tribe.

Sean Prophet:

It's about, again, it's about, we have to embrace all of our citizens within the nation as part of our family.

Sean Prophet:

And that's the difference between conservatives and liberals?

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

And, this gets back to down right down to human nature.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

But like, we, we, we, you know, traditionally, you, you have, Small hunter-gatherer bands, right?

Christophe Difo:

Everyone that wasn't in your band literally was not considered a human being.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

Like it was right, like, right.

Christophe Difo:

Like that is how we grew up.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

That is how our brains developed.

Christophe Difo:

We developed in that environment.

Christophe Difo:

And so the key and I've been, and I believe this to my heart is to, is to expand that tribe.

Christophe Difo:

So that, like you said, really, so, and that means recognizing commonalities.

Christophe Difo:

Right.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and, and, and.

Christophe Difo:

Privileged.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

Exactly.

Christophe Difo:

And, and, and, and you know, and religion's a big part of this too, but that's not, that's where I'd topic for another day.

Christophe Difo:

Yeah.

Christophe Difo:

Well, thanks so much, Christophe.

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About the Podcast

Radically Human
with Difo and Liz
Social Justice through Shared Experience, Strength, and Hope